Voicing Education

Consciously Educating

Why is leading mental health crucial in schools?

Women Leaders / by

On this week’s episode of the Women Leaders series, I am speaking with Danielle Smith, a walking champion for mental health and wellbeing.  We discuss her journey in leadership, being an empathetic leader, and she shares her passion for mental health and why it is so important for staff to develop an understanding of how it can impact a child’s ability to learn.

But now I almost feel quite overwhelmed with how much I have progressed and that was only a few years ago.

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Danielle Smith

Mental Health & Wellbeing Assistant Headteacher

Danielle Smith is currently an Assistant Headteacher for mental health and wellbeing at a large primary school in North London. She is responsible for leading PSHE within the school and has implemented many exciting and positive changes such as regular yoga and mindfulness sessions, as well as designing and launching a new curriculum. 

 Outside of school, Danielle is a qualified children’s yoga instructor and has also completed courses in mindfulness for children. Alongside her role within the school, she is also currently studying for her Masters in Child and Adolescent Mental Health and looks forward to applying this knowledge and skill set to her future endeavours.

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Resources

Book: Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt

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NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie  0:38
In this episode, I’m speaking with Danielle Smith, who is currently an assistant head teacher for mental health and wellbeing at a large Primary School in North London. In fact, she’s a colleague of mine, and we’ve worked together for some years now. She is responsible for leading PSHE within the school and has implemented many exciting and positive changes, such as regular yoga and mindfulness sessions, as well as designing and launching a new curriculum. outside of school. Danielle is a qualified children’s yoga instructor, and has also completed courses in mindfulness for children. alongside her role within school, she’s also currently studying for her master’s controlled and adolescent mental health, and looks forward to applying this knowledge and skill set to her future endeavours. Hi, Danielle, it’s so good to have you here on the podcast. And I’m so excited to get talking with you. And I just want to say really, that Danielle, you have grown so much. And I’m really excited to share your journey with our listeners. So first of all, before we go straight into all of this, I just want to know a bit about you your background, and how you’ve got into education.

Danielle Smith  2:26
And so I have been teaching now for seven years. And when I was at school, I always really liked the thought of teaching. But it was always I didn’t ever know whether it’d be something that I’d be able to do, because I was so quiet. And so I thought maybe I’d go down there like psychology route, and then look at child psychology. But then I had a year out after school, after I finished my A Levels and volunteered at a primary school. And then that was it. And I was decided I was like this is definitely what I want to do.

Kathleen Cushnie  3:02
Okay, so if you’re thinking back to when you’re at school, how pivotal were the teachers in your growth in your decisions in becoming a teacher would you say,

Danielle Smith  3:12
I absolutely loved, especially primary school. And I still remember, there was a couple of teachers, my reception teacher, and my year three teacher that just really stood out as like being so caring, and just the way they took an interest in me as a person that can I can really, really remember that and feel very valued. And then as always something that I would hope that I could pass on to children that they could remember me and that way too.

Kathleen Cushnie  3:42
Okay so knowing you actually, that has definitely passed on. Because I would say that you’re very caring, you really actually care about the pupils. And you can tell that it for you. It’s not you’re more than just a teacher, you’re actually there to progress them as people, you know, it’s not just about that academia is about them as a whole person. So speaking about that, I know that you’re really interested in mental health. So can you just talk to us about mental health and why that is a passion of yours.

Danielle Smith  4:12
And I think that links back to what I was saying previously about as the whole child. And of course, as a teacher, you want the children to progress well in their learning and achieve and be successful. But I think unless they are comfortable, they are happy, you’re never going to be able to achieve that. And if they’ve got things going on in their life in the background that we aren’t understanding, we’re never going to be able to get them to achieve what they need to academically. I think they are really, really sort of hand in hand with each other. So I think it’s so important just to have an understanding of the whole child on what they might be experiencing and really supporting that as well.

Kathleen Cushnie  4:50
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. So thinking about your knowledge and your growing knowledge and mental health. How has this changed your Thinking on leadership would you say?

Danielle Smith  5:02
I think it was something that I was always quite passionate about, even when I was looking when I was at university and doing my teacher training. But I think the more that you work with children, the more you realise how important that is to be aware of mental health and issues that might be surrounding a child. And as it was something that I was passionate about, I wanted everyone to realise how important that is. And I think it is really important that as a whole school, everyone has that shared understanding of the importance of mental health and well being. That’s something that I’ve hoped to sort of use my passion to deliver that to sort of staff so we can all be on the same journey.

Kathleen Cushnie  5:45
And why, why particularly though, mental health, how has that impacted your leadership? So in terms of leading on mental health, as a leader, why, how how has that impacted your skills in leadership?

Danielle Smith  6:00
Um, I think because, again, it is something that I’m passionate about. But I think I’m able, because it is something I do really care about, I think I feel confident in delivering that as a leader. Because it’s something that I want to be shared with everyone. I think, coming from my background, when I wasn’t very confident, the prospect of leadership could be quite daunting. But I think when it is something that you really care about, and you want to make a difference, that the confidence, kind of you can sort of put that to one side a little bit.

Kathleen Cushnie  6:32
So you speaking about previously with confidence, so could you talk to us a bit more about that? So you’re saying, you know, the passion has enabled your confidence to come through. So what what was the would you say? before?

Danielle Smith  6:49
Yeah, so I think it was in about year two, that I actually got glasses. I just stopped speaking. And I didn’t want anyone to look at me, I didn’t want I didn’t want to speak in front of anyone. And that continued even well, even during my A Levels. I didn’t speak at all. Now, I think I probably was a selective mute. It wasn’t that I couldn’t speak, I just didn’t want to it was just total fear of people looking at me being wrong, and making a mistake and having that attention. So the solution was just not to speak. So to now find something that I feel confident in and passionate about, to speak about is it’s been very rewarding.

Kathleen Cushnie  7:37
Yes, brilliant. So it’s funny, because you would never know that you were a selected mute. And I think, I don’t know, maybe you can say, I would say that having those experiences has enabled you to become the person you are, in terms of how you relate to children in a classroom. What would you say about that?

Danielle Smith  7:56
Definitely, I think it’s made me more empathetic understanding of not knowing what’s going on in the background. It was so easy. I remember my mum would always say parents evening, they’d say, Oh, yeah, Danielle is quiet. She doesn’t speak. And when I was like, okay, would tell me something. Tell me more about my child. And there were some times there was just nothing more. And it was sort of like, there is more to that. You just haven’t chosen to understand what is going on. And so I think to me, I’m like, okay, there’s a reason behind why every child might be a certain way, whether it’s something that maybe might be characterised as sort of naughty behaviour. What is actually really going on there, what is that trying to tell us? Or if a child is really quiet? What is what is going on? I think it’s really trying to understand those children and their backgrounds.

Kathleen Cushnie  8:50
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that empathy and understanding, I mean, those two, you have to understand the pupils. So thinking about that in in yourself. So knowing you as you do, why is using your voice in terms of promoting mental health, so important, like not just for children, but for you yourself? Like how, how has that impacted you?

Danielle Smith  9:19
I think it is so easy to be very hard on yourself, and very critical of yourself. And I think that’s something I’ve always, I always want to achieve and do well. So I think I can then be quite harsh and expect very highly. And then again, obviously that can affect how you’re feeling. And I think it’s important to try and practice what I preach sometimes and I’ll talk to the children about having a growth mindset and things like that. But it’s always important remembering that as an adult as well, and then sharing that with others as well. I think it’s important.

Kathleen Cushnie  9:59
And how do you share that with others?

Danielle Smith  10:01
And I think I try to be quite a good role model of that as well, that it’s okay if you don’t know the answer. Or if you do make a mistake. And I think that’s something that within maybe my leadership that if I’m not sure about something, it’s okay to ask a question or seek advice. I hope that other people can see that, see that from me, and that they would do the same. And I do know that people have come to me, and to speak to me about things within mental health, about specific children or within sort of the PSHE as well. And it’s quite nice that people felt like they can come to talk to me about it. So I hope that I’m sort of giving off that to people.

Kathleen Cushnie  10:43
Yeah, it’s really interesting what you said about asking for help, because I’m, really, really do believe in that. Because, you know, there’s many times where you can get so overwhelmed with just trying to struggle through yourself thinking, you know, I need to know all the answers myself. But once she asked for help you realise that you no one, nobody knows all the answers, and two everybody needs help. So we’re all in this together, really. So I think that’s a really important thing, just to highlight. And so thinking about your growth, tell us kind of how you’ve ended up in leadership. So what what’s your journey? What’s your story?

Danielle Smith  11:23
So I actually started at school as a trainee. So I feel like I’m really proud of my journey at the school. And so I started there, and my final placement completed my NQT year, and then started within sort of subject leadership within PSAT. So and then didn’t have that for a few years. And then the hill, that’s something I’m so passionate about. And again, I think that’s helped to make a difference to lead in that as a subject because it was something I really do care about implementing. And again, at first, that was something that was really daunting having to speak in front of a group of people I remember doing the first staff meeting was about mindfulness that I ever did. And I was absolutely terrified. I had everything written down, word for word in a notebook, there was no way I was going to be able to read a script. And, but now, that sort of become a like, I almost feel quite overwhelmed with how much I’ve progressed from then. And that was only a few years ago. And now it’s, I have led training sessions online through through the pandemic. And we’ve, we’ve staff, and it just does go a lot more comfortable doing that now. So I am really sort of proud of myself of how I’ve progressed as a leader and something that maybe I never envisaged that I would do. But now I’m, yeah, I really enjoy it and really loved the role that I have.

Kathleen Cushnie  12:54
Fantastic! I was gonna ask you, actually, so what is it about your role that you enjoy? What is it that drives you…what gets you up in the morning?

Danielle Smith  13:03
I think having that opportunity to be able to influence and make a change. And especially in the school, we’re in having so many children and knowing that you can make a difference to so many, whether it’s on a whole sort of when we do things to like a whole school, that you’re sort of supporting all the children. But if there’s sort of one child that really takes something away from something that you’ve implemented, or a member of staff that’s really take something away for something you’ve implemented, I think that’s such a rewarding feeling.

Kathleen Cushnie  13:36
And does would you say the rewarding feeling, suppose you want to do more and impact others further?

Danielle Smith  13:42
Definitely, it just makes you I think it just gives you even more of a drive to do even more and to achieve more and just put things in place. Definitely. I think it sort of drives that passion even more.

Kathleen Cushnie  13:54
So thinking back to young Danielle, who had the glasses and was in year two, do think that Danielle would have known that she would have become who you are today?

Danielle Smith  14:05
Absolutely not. I can’t even imagine that. I could have, oh, we’re gonna get emotional. That could have been achieved this much. It just like a different person, really. And I think when I went back to my secondary school, and after a couple of years of starting teaching, one of my own teachers who wasn’t very supportive whilst I was at school, because I was quiet. When I said I was a teacher now. They’re like, What? You you? Surely not you can’t do that you didn’t speak and I was thinking actually, you know what, I really wish you could almost see me now and actually, I wish you hadn’t put me down. So yeah, I’m I can’t believe how proud of myself I am actually. It’s definitely a very rewarding feeling.

Kathleen Cushnie  14:52
Yeah, I mean, just working with you. I just, I’ve seen your growth like you know, when you you made the mindfulness staff meeting. And I remember saying, you know, you know, Danielle, let’s let’s lead on mindfulness, I think you should present. And you were like, Oh, okay. Okay. And I remember your your notebook that you had, and you had all your notes written down. So now, I mean, like you said, that was about two years ago. How long ago? Was that?

Danielle Smith  15:21
I think it was three years ago. I think it was like a January inset day. So it wasn’t Yeah, it wasn’t long ago.

Kathleen Cushnie  15:27
Yeah. So. So three, within the three years, you’ve had, you know, lead on your first staff meeting, you’ve led PSHE, you know, really, really well. And then if you think about it now, like, tell us what are you doing now? Tell us about the the key milestones in your journey in leadership.

Danielle Smith  15:49
I think when I realised that that was when we started looking at, like the mindfulness and everything in school, and I realised it was something that I was passionate about. I’ve done some courses outside of school in children’s yoga and mindfulness. And the more of that I did, and the more that I looked at Children’s Mental Health, I was like, I need to do more, I need to learn more. And so I started my Masters in Child and Adolescent Mental Health. And I’m very nearly at the end of that, and then the last last leg of my journey to completing my Masters. So just developing my knowledge in that field even more.

Kathleen Cushnie  16:27
So you’re keen a learner? Is that something that you would say, in terms of becoming a leader, that is a requirement? What would you say?

Danielle Smith  16:37
I think it’s, you’ve got to have that desire to want to learn, and to improve, I think that you always need to continually improve and adapt, because nothing stays, nothing’s going to stay the same. Or think about the last year, leadership, probably from how it was a year ago to now it’s going to be very different. I think having that adaptability. And being able to learn to adapt to different situations is definitely important within leadership,

Kathleen Cushnie  17:02
Absolutely! Adapt to change.  Everything is moving. In order to be honest with you. I think in order to grow, we have to adapt, you know, when you’re born, you do not say the same size, you know, your body is always evolving, your mind is evolving, and you’re learning new things every day. And I think that you know that that basic skill of growth and being able to go with the change, because I think sometimes when we don’t move with the change, that’s where the problems come, that resistance really causes  struggle. So speaking of struggles, what challenges have you faced on your leadership journey?

Danielle Smith  17:39
And I think it would link back to confidence. Especially to begin with, I think that confidence did hold me back. Because when you don’t seem sure in what you’re saying, it can come across, even if you’re trying your hardest to stay confident. I think when you speak confidently, it comes across people believe what you’re saying they can get on board, especially with something like mental health that has had a bit of a stigma attached to it. It’s really trying to make everyone realise how important that is. Obvious, that’s been a challenge as well. Because everyone’s got their own background, their own experiences. And so trying to get that shared, shared vision can be quite a challenge, if we’re thinking specifically about leading a mental health.

Kathleen Cushnie  18:29
Yeah you’re absolutely right, that is a challenge. Because, you know, to be honest, I think, as mental health has increased in its, let’s say, popularity, in terms of awareness, and you were there at the beginning, because I remember speaking to you back, then four years ago, and you sharing how important mental health was to you in terms of your passion, learning about it. And you knew you recognised actually quite early on how important investing in mental health was for our pupils, and also for staff. So I remember having those conversations back and seeing you along your journey and saying that Dannielle, this is it, I know, it’s gonna make an impact. I know you’re at the right place at the right time. And I mean, like we’ve had these conversations before, we never knew that a pandemic would come, but through the pandemic, it has enabled you to grow even more, because everything, all of your knowledge that you have been gaining has been able to come together and you know, really help others. And so now, where are you now? Let’s talk about you now and where you’re going. So, tell us, is there anything that’s on the horizon in terms of your leadership, and what’s happening for you right now?

Danielle Smith  19:44
Yeah, so obviously, I have nearly finished my Masters. So I think what I’m going to be writing about will really help within. So I’m going to be looking at refugee children and children that have come from traumatic backgrounds, and how that affects their mental health and wellbeing and how that can be supported within schools, I think that’d be something that would be really useful that I can bring into the school setting. And as a result of that, I’ve been speaking to my university tutors. And hopefully, they might be a position to be supporting at the university, as well with other students on their journey in child and adolescent mental health. Because most of the students that have come from sort like a nursing background, but as coming from a school background is quite rare within that course. So hopefully, I can use the knowledge that I’ve learned while working at school, to support others in their journey as well.

Kathleen Cushnie  20:47
Okay, right, he kind of skipped along that quite, you know, humbly. What do you mean supporting our students in the course? Danielle, let’s be bold in your progress. So what do you actually mean, you’re supporting other students. What do you mean by that?

Danielle Smith  21:04
So I was approach to be, hopefully with the restructure, a support University tutor on the course at the university.

Kathleen Cushnie  21:13
Fantastic. Now, this is what we’ve got to do that I always know that it is sometimes uncomfortable speaking about, you know, the successes that you have. Now, before you said, oh, I’ve just been I’ll be supporting some students. But no, Danielle, you’re going to be a tutor, you were approached to be a tutor. That is massive! Now, let’s think back again, let’s think back to three years ago, you would never have known… the MA was an idea. But he would have thought within you know, two years, within two years, you would be approached, so they came to you, to be supporting them in tutoring. That is absolutely amazing. How does that make you feel?

Danielle Smith  22:01
I was in absolute shock. When I got off the the course it was Zoom, the call to discuss, I couldn’t believe I sort of got off the call. And I thought that really just happen. I’ve always I’ve always been really passionate about working with children, but I never saw myself working and training and supporting adults. So that was just a venture that I never saw happening, but is obviously very, very exciting, and hopefully can use the passion that I have to you know, influence others to have passion too.

Kathleen Cushnie  22:35
Absolutely. And is that is that isn’t it, you never saw it happening. So you think about the little steps that we take, you just don’t know what’s coming. So I think it’s really important that we just remember that the one step can lead to something else, another door may be blown open. And it all you know, if you think about, you know, young Danielle in year two, you know, you know, your voice being selected mute that that’s that was then, you know, we can open up and we can grow, but just by using our voice. So what advice would you give to a teacher wanting to pursue a pathway similar to yours?

Danielle Smith  23:11
I think it’s important, again, about being open and willing to try something new. Even if you’re daunted. You don’t know, like, what would you was just saying what doors that can open. And you might find something an avenue that you never thought of exploring? And not being afraid to say yes to things. I think that’s really important to saying yes, giving it a go trying even if you don’t, you might have doubts in yourself. Just try. And you might surprise yourself. And that’s really, really important. Just being open and willing to give give give something ago.

Kathleen Cushnie  23:52
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that, that you said about just saying yes to things because that is when the change happens. And going back to what you said about being able to adapt, adapt, and grow comes from saying yes to things, not too much that you have to be, you know, aware of the boundaries. So, we’re going to come to an end now. So thinking about resources, so helping others. So what’s the best resource that’s helped you along your journey? Would you say maybe a book, an app or podcast, what’s the best resource that you would like to share?

Danielle Smith  24:23
In terms of like, mental health, with children, and there was one book that I read right at the start of my course, which just makes you start looking at things slightly differently. And it’s just about the relate. It’s all about relationships that an adult can have of a child and how important that is in a child’s development. And that book’s called, Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt. And I think just reading that knowing what a difference even though a lot of it stemmed from sort of like a mother and it’s a lot of it you can relate as a teacher and the massive impact you can make. So I found that book quite powerful, powerful read.

Kathleen Cushnie  25:06
Fantastic. I’ve got that book actually, I borrowed it from Hulya, who is our deputy head for inclusion. And I haven’t read it yet. So thanks for that, because I will dip into that. Because, you know, again, now the conversations that we’ve had previously, that is really important. Is there anything that you would say in terms of leadership that you’ve listened to or been inspired by that you’d like to share? That’s really tricky question. Let’s think about inspiration. So who has inspired you?

Danielle Smith  25:37
Okay, from outside of a school perspective, and this probably sounds very cheesy. But my mum, she has always just worked so hard, and she’s not within education. But she’s always just had such a passion and the drive to just succeed in everything she’s done. And just put her mind to things. And within her field, it’s very male dominated. So to see her sort of face challenges in that way and become a success. I think that’s quite inspirational as well.

Kathleen Cushnie  26:15
Yeah, it’s important that you mentioned the male dominated situation, because sometimes that can be a challenge in itself. Yes, using your voice to speak up because of how you think it will land in their environment. Okay, so how can our listeners connect with you online? If they want to connect with you. How can they do that?

Danielle Smith  26:35
I have just started a new Twitter account. Because I think it’s really important that I now that I’m really developing that knowledge I want to be able to, and I find Twitter a really useful platform to learn, as well. So maybe that is something I find quite inspirational, you can you can see a lot of people’s success on there. There’s so much knowledge on that when you in within the field of education. So I think that’s a really useful platform that I’m definitely going to be exploring more right now as well.

Kathleen Cushnie  27:05
Fantastic. And then we’re going to end with either three deep dive statements or a random question. What do you want to go for Danielle?

Danielle Smith  27:12
A random question.

Kathleen Cushnie  27:14
Okay, random question. So your random question is, you’re about to walk into an interview for your ideal role. You can take a sip of articulation, or a nibble of focus, which one do you consume and why?

Danielle Smith  27:29
I think the articulation because I think often I have what I want to say and loads of ideas in my head, and it’s just being able to really communicate that in a really clear, understanding understandable, that passionate way.

Kathleen Cushnie  27:47
Brilliant. Thank you, Danielle. Thanks for sharing your ideas and your journey with us. Thank thanks so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice. And it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai